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#1 BecD

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 04:54 PM

I was hoping you'd be able to help me understand the theological reasons why someone would keep their children (aged 2 and 9mths) in the sermon rather than taking them out to creche/Sunday school.

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2017 – “Because of the Lord’s great love we are not consumed, for his compassions never fail. They are new every morning; great is your faithfulness. I say to myself, “The Lord is my portion; therefore I will wait for him.”” Lamentations 3:22-24


#2 Ju

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 05:32 PM

Im wondering why the children shouldn't be with their mum in the sermon? But then, we keep the children in every Sunday.
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#3 Anne-Marie

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 06:06 PM

Because the sermon isn't aimed at them & expecting them to be quiet and/or still throughout is unfair & unrealistic

So if there's no provision adults should expect some disruption but if there is provision it's reasonable to expect parents/caters to use it so the adults can concentrate

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#4 EnglishMuffin

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 06:45 PM

Theologically it would possibly from an understanding of something called the 'multi generational vision' which is essentially about not splitting everyone up into different age groups in church. But that idea does presuppose a certain amount of training at home so that disruption is minimal in the church setting. It also presupposes everyone else is on board with the idea so that inevitable noise is understood.

Hsat, I am not in a multi generational church setting any longer, I attend a Catholic Mass and while parents do take little ones out should they become too fractious, they mostly stay in. But then the sermons aren't as long anyway.

But yeah, it's often a 'keep everyone together' idea.
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#5 BecD

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 06:46 PM

But what are the biblical reasons for a child listening to the sermon rather than age appropriate teaching? This osnt an issue of provision, this is a specific choice!

Me and DH, DD (5) and DS (3)

 

2017 – “Because of the Lord’s great love we are not consumed, for his compassions never fail. They are new every morning; great is your faithfulness. I say to myself, “The Lord is my portion; therefore I will wait for him.”” Lamentations 3:22-24


#6 EnglishMuffin

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 06:51 PM

Also, some parents may take their own responsibility to teach their children very seriously and not be happy about delegating to a Sunday school. Or see faulty reasoning in age segregated provision when the children will eventually have to get used to sermons anyway. Just throwing some ideas out here
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#7 BecD

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 07:20 PM

Thank you! I'm just trying to get my head round it as some new friends of ours have a 2yo and 9mo and are keeping their children in church for biblical reasons. But they are trying to do it in a church with a children's work for primary school age and a creche, and it's causing some issues. I'm just trying to understand both sides of the story.

Me and DH, DD (5) and DS (3)

 

2017 – “Because of the Lord’s great love we are not consumed, for his compassions never fail. They are new every morning; great is your faithfulness. I say to myself, “The Lord is my portion; therefore I will wait for him.”” Lamentations 3:22-24


#8 Ju

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 08:25 PM

Could they be saying it's "biblical reasons" but actually it's bc they want to keep their children as close as possible? I don't remember k ever going to Creche or Sunday school on her own as a preschooler. It wasn't biblical reasons, it was simply she wanted/needed me.
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We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous?
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#9 BecD

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 08:40 PM

Maybe... though the mum has been talking about home schooling too.

I'm worried because they have left a church over it.

Me and DH, DD (5) and DS (3)

 

2017 – “Because of the Lord’s great love we are not consumed, for his compassions never fail. They are new every morning; great is your faithfulness. I say to myself, “The Lord is my portion; therefore I will wait for him.”” Lamentations 3:22-24


#10 EnglishMuffin

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 08:48 PM

If they're potential homeschoolers, I would be more inclined to both the multi generational thing and the trust about delegation. I speak from experience, those were our reasons when we kept everyone together during the sermon (and bear in mind that I remember one sermon running to about an hour and more, so it was pretty hardcore - and very hard work with two and more!!)
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hp1.gifAslan is on the move!

Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

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#11 BecD

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 09:04 PM

Thank you for sharing EM. I am really struggling to know how to support her as they don't seem to have thick enough skins to stand by their decision and not be upset. And there is another baby due in January (will be 13 months between #2 and #3). I guess I just pray and listen...

Me and DH, DD (5) and DS (3)

 

2017 – “Because of the Lord’s great love we are not consumed, for his compassions never fail. They are new every morning; great is your faithfulness. I say to myself, “The Lord is my portion; therefore I will wait for him.”” Lamentations 3:22-24


#12 EnglishMuffin

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 09:18 PM

Wowsers. They sound like they could be us twelve or so years ago!
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Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Whether we like it or not - We are LOVED; Fr. Thomas Hopko.

#13 hepzibah

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Posted 25 September 2017 - 08:07 AM

Also, some parents may take their own responsibility to teach their children very seriously and not be happy about delegating to a Sunday school. Or see faulty reasoning in age segregated provision when the children will eventually have to get used to sermons anyway. Just throwing some ideas out here

 

I get this - couldn't do it myself, but I get it!

 

BecD - you said they've left a church over this before, so it's no wonder they aren't that thick-skinned, the criticism was wounding enough for them to move on. I hope EM has given you enough info for you to talk to them with some understanding (((()))) :pray1:


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#14 Dipsy

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Posted 25 September 2017 - 09:57 AM

There is a Presbyterian church near us which places an emphasis on the covenantal role of the family and a desire to worship together as a family - they have a couple of large home-ed families, one which travels over an hour because they feel so strongly that it is the correct way to do church (the one family is very strict and their kids sit perfectly, the other is slightly wilder, so I'm pretty certain they'll wriggle a lot.) The Orthodox church in town doesn't have a Sunday school and they have kids running everywhere, and they are celebrated as gifts from the Father. Others families may wish to be in control of what their children are taught - not uncommon with home-ed families. I had a few wobbles myself sat in Sunday school with a 2/3 year old, because the teacher was lovely, but sometimes wrong in the way she worded things. Actually, with the home-ed route, the behaviour in the average Sunday school class might not something they want their children to learn is ever acceptable. Depending on the teacher, it can be chaotic, with children not sitting down and listening. It is hard to deal with, when family expectations need to be quite different. The emphasis on church being fun and entertaining is something we struggle with, because church being boring is not a reason not to go!

 

It is really hard starting out on the home-ed route, and never exactly easy. People often ask quite aggressively "What about socialisation?", "Are you a qualified teacher?" and similar questions which are really hard to keep answering, especially if you are feeling rather daunted at God's calling to do so, or are having a bad week or even a good week. Even yesterday I had the socialisation question! It is really rude, actually, of people to question someone's ability to do what they are doing, or planning on doing. We don't keep our children locked in our basements never seeing anyone else, which is almost what you get the impression some people think, and the children do come out as productive adults capable of coping socially. Only once in 16 years at church have I had someone say, "Oh, how wonderful!" and be positively encouraging. I would love to feel supported enough to be real with people at church to vent about a bad home-ed week, and for them to just listen and not to tell me to put my kids into school! I would never tell someone who's kids had an issue at school that they should home-ed, or someone who had a tough job to do something different. I have normally felt unaccepted and unsupported within church - for my calling and ministry, which is sad. I'm absolutely fine with things now, and have recently found a supportive church, but I wanted to be real here, so others can perhaps get an insight into how things so often are for home-ed families.


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#15 BecD

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Posted 25 September 2017 - 10:57 AM

I get this - couldn't do it myself, but I get it!

BecD - you said they've left a church over this before, so it's no wonder they aren't that thick-skinned, the criticism was wounding enough for them to move on. I hope EM has given you enough info for you to talk to them with some understanding (((()))) :pray1:

I know a bit more about the church they've left as the minister's wife is a good friend. A concern was raised about the noise level and how it was distracting, and when the minister tried to start to deal with it they got upset and walked before anything could be discussed.
(Edited to add that I didn't know it was this family until the guy spoke with dh about it and we out 2 and 2 together!)

Thank you all for your comments, it's been really helpful. I want to be there for her and her family but just wanted to understand a bit more...

Edited by BecD, 25 September 2017 - 11:27 AM.

Me and DH, DD (5) and DS (3)

 

2017 – “Because of the Lord’s great love we are not consumed, for his compassions never fail. They are new every morning; great is your faithfulness. I say to myself, “The Lord is my portion; therefore I will wait for him.”” Lamentations 3:22-24


#16 BecD

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Posted 25 September 2017 - 11:04 AM

Thank you Dipsy for the extra home-ed comments. I've actually had a good chat with her about their thinking 're home-ed. (Though she managed to tell me that I was intentionally sunning by sending my children to school!)
I'm actually more worried about her than the kids doing home school - she seems to struggle being alone and home ed could just increase her loneliness. But her eldest is only 2 so we'll see!

Edited by BecD, 25 September 2017 - 11:11 AM.

Me and DH, DD (5) and DS (3)

 

2017 – “Because of the Lord’s great love we are not consumed, for his compassions never fail. They are new every morning; great is your faithfulness. I say to myself, “The Lord is my portion; therefore I will wait for him.”” Lamentations 3:22-24


#17 EnglishMuffin

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Posted 25 September 2017 - 11:09 AM

Be the best friend you can be. Home ed in those circs can be incredibly lonely, and if you couple it with a certain amount of suspicion of other ways of doing things, doubly so. I think I only coped because we found ourselves in a church (forty minutes away, mind) that had a number of other families that believed the way we did. One family in particular was beautifully supportive and it made all the difference. But even there, I remember one family being very standoffish about letting their kids play with ours, and I know they were into Vision Forum type thinking. Vision Forum isn't around any more, but it's ideas are still influential and seductive.
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hp1.gifAslan is on the move!

Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Whether we like it or not - We are LOVED; Fr. Thomas Hopko.

#18 BecD

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Posted 25 September 2017 - 11:23 AM

So how can you have a multi generational family in a church which has children's groups up to 11? The expectation of those in the sermon is for less noise. How can you balance that family's choices and the choices of the rest of the congregation?

(Thank you for helping me to think this all through in a safe place! I'm not trying to be argumentative or negative, just trying to grapple with it!)

Me and DH, DD (5) and DS (3)

 

2017 – “Because of the Lord’s great love we are not consumed, for his compassions never fail. They are new every morning; great is your faithfulness. I say to myself, “The Lord is my portion; therefore I will wait for him.”” Lamentations 3:22-24


#19 EnglishMuffin

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Posted 25 September 2017 - 11:36 AM

I think I would encourage charity on all sides. They must understand that the church is not geared up for the method they are using, but equally, people worried about the occasional squeals of children can afford to take a breath and be blessed that children are in the church at all.
If you can advise her without her taking things the wrong way, I would suggest practice 'church time' when at home to get them used to sitting quietly, quiet snacks and activities like simple colouring or a non noisy doll for times when distraction is necessary. There's also a book I remember being quite useful called 'Parenting in the Pew' but it is a long time since I read it so I can't say I would agree with all of it now.
One of my friends practiced 'rug time' from when her children were very little. Basically you have a rug and encourage, using treats and positive reinforcement, them to stay on the rug. Then you take the rug to church, put it on the chair and hopefully the message eventually sticks!!
But I would also gently encourage her that babies make noise, unavoidably, and sometimes it is kind to others to take them out until they settle down, as this is part of their training too, if that makes sense.

Hope that's not to overwhelming, it's a long time since I had to deal with the issue!
Dh 44 Me 40 Dd1 15 Dd2 13 Dd3 11 Ds 10

hp1.gifAslan is on the move!

Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Whether we like it or not - We are LOVED; Fr. Thomas Hopko.

#20 Dipsy

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Posted 25 September 2017 - 12:49 PM

That all sounds very practical ideas.

 

 

:o At her saying you were sinning. To believe that so forcefully could place her in a really difficult place if things don't work out for whatever reason at home. That is an enormous pressure to put on yourself! (And also completely wrong IMNSHO!) To begin with I committed to a year at a time to see how it went.

 

There are lots of suggestions on line:

 

https://familyshare....t-during-church

 

https://kidsactiviti...quiet-at-church


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